Valium for the Soul

I do so enjoy a good debate.

However, this is one difference I believe you failed to mention.

American's don't really care what form of government and/or social programs you choose to have in Australia. Whereas Australians (generalization here) seem to put a lot of effort into changing and/or slamming America. ie the previous 'America land of tyranny' post.

I could understand a statement like that coming from a 3rd world uneducated country a lot more than from a proud Australian citizen. I'm supposed to respect the opinions and ideas of someone who would make such a statement?

Now, for the sake of argument here, let's say we live in a nice little neighborhood. There's only say 20 houses in this community. We have some sort of 'universal' laws that guide the neighborhood, sure, but when you go in your house, and I go in mine, I would never presume to criticise what you do there.

But that's me.

 

Brilliant!
Thanks for the clarification.
Love Bill Leak.

 

Oops I missed another point...... Here, in America, we recognize someone's ethnic background, because people choose it to be. For example....

An Indian friend of mine, an American/Indian citizen, tries desparately to keep her Indian heritage alive not only for herself and her longing for her homeland, but for her children who have never lived in India. She calls herself an Indian and wants to be recognized as such. Should I inform her that its wrong or humorous?

 

If that's the way you classify fundamentalist then I guess you could say anyone who has ANY religious belief is a fundamentalist.

As an *outsider* observing Australian culture and having read extensively on Australian Indigenous peoples, I have to ponder why you think they've influenced Australian culture so much! Yes, it's a shame native Americans haven't had a large impact. Similarly, Aboriginals have their own unique & comletely separate culture which has impacted popular Australian culture in no observable way.

The distinctions regarding race were made in response to a question about segregation. I know no other way to respond to a question regarding separation of races without making that clarification.

Finally, Americans would rather have freedom of speech than racial vilification laws. I personally think it's in very poor taste to laugh about a tragedy however I would defend to the death your right to say it.

 

Fundamentalism? Hmmm. From where I view the world, I have come to this conclusion about religious fundamentalism. Fundamentalists have arrived at a view of religion as outlined in whichever documents that provide some written history of their particular religion. They take those documents as the one and only view and strongly demand that others must believe as they do. The inevitable consequence for not believing as they demand is eternal damnation.

You may have noticed I have not identified these folks as Christian, Muslim or any other group. Given their individual points of view they are more alike than different.

Here in the good old USofA we support the idea that we all have the freedom to believe whatever we choose. The fundamentalists have the freedom to talk about their beliefs to anyone they wish. I wouldn't have it any other way. There seems to be problem with their insistence on a vengeful God. They might want to consider the question - Does their God also hate bigots? I wonder?

Enough of this for the time being. One thing that I remember about the Australians I have had the privilege and honor to spend time with is the fact that they all were laid back. They did not take themselve too seriously. I can only hope that my own bent in that direction was partially influenced by them.

 

Stitches:

I think the point you make about govt sums up the Australian perspective very well. Note that I am making cultural generalisations.

The perception is that Americans care very little about anything outside their own shores unless it threatens them in some way. Australia has very little impact on America. Contrarywise America has had a significant impact on Australia - Our govt chose to sign a Free Trade Agreement with America - whereby all concessions were made by Aust & none by the US for example: Aust is to stop subsidising farmers - but the US can do so. We are not accountable individually for the decisions of our govt - however we are impacted by them as are all nations.

The Australian Perspective is one of a little country (population, economy etc) against the capitalist conglomerate that is the US. Against is a strong term - but if feels very much like a David & Goliath situation on occasion.

At no point would we (the intelligent among us) doubt that American's as individuals are much like Australians as individuals - but our cultual heritages are very different.

 

Oz,

My comment is that Aboriginal heritage hasn't permeated the Australian culture to the detriment of our culture. I was marking this as a similarity.

 

hey stitches77
there you go again!As a human being, you are supposed to respect the ideas of ALL folk,whether or not you agree with them.
Don't be so quick to take offence on behalf of you country,its big enough to look after itself!
If,as you state, Americans don't really care what form of government and/ social programs other nation choose, how do you explain continual american global interference in other nations governance?{this question is rhetorical}
And now for the sake of argument, in your theoetical neighbourhood,do you not have a duty to ensure that wives are not being bashed, children molested, drugs manufactured,geriatrics being suff
ocated with pillows,etc..?
Yes, apparently that is you,stitches,and though your friends might tell you that you are a lovely lass, you have a tendency to come across as a self satisfied redneck to me.
I know you will agree that it is important to hear even unpleasant truths about oneself.
Y'all have a nice day now, y'hear!

 

Hi Blue

I find it astounding that anyone would think America doesn't care about what happens in the rest of the world. Are you sure that's what you meant to say?

I'm assuming of course that you weren't referring to my statement about Americans not caring what form of govt/social prog. etc Aus. have. Because in this I'm mainly meaning I don't care if you have or don't have gun control, death penalty, seatbelt laws, smoking laws, etc. I'm worried about my own life/country/family. It's not up to me to say or even try to influence another country about such matters. You believe one way...you vote for the person you think will uphold those values. We do it here, you do it there. That's the way it should be.

The free trade agreements America has made (not only with Australia) has hurt American citizens here. Its helped some, but in my opinion its hurt more than its helped. Obviously you feel the same way about Australia.

You said: "At no point would we (the intelligent among us) doubt that American's as individuals are much like Australians as individuals - but our cultual heritages are very different."

We're all just people. And all people have different backgrounds, even from within the same country. ie yankees and southerners. Perhaps it would be better to just discuss an issue, than make broad statements that will obviously inflame. I love discussing topics. But I will always become angry when I feel someone has made an attack or arbitrary statement aimed at my family or children, and I will also react the same about my country, most especially when it comes from someone who has never even been here. I realize you didn't call America the land of tyranny, someone else posting on your blog did, but the impression I got was total agreement on your part. And I don't see how you can justify a statement like that.

I think I'll just go back to my knitting now. Or reading, or

 

Dear d'artagnan,

I find I have tired of you. You are vicious and irrational.

I'll leave with one word of advice for you..........learn how to spell before you call someone a redneck.

Signed
The Southern Belle

 

Hey Stitches,

My comments were never aimed or intended to be aimed at individuals - they were always intended to be observations & opinions on the differences in culture between the 2 countries. Obviously, my perceptions & opinions are just that - I haven't done significant, focussed research, it is based on my reading (a lot) and media from a number of different countries (albeit the english speaking ones as I am mono lingual). Americans are perceived globally as being insular. This is not intended as a personal attack or to be aimed at any individual - it is a global perception & opinion. I accept that no country is perfect & we all have a natural bias towards our own.

 

D'Artagnan,
I love how you say on Alison's blog that Stitches is resorting to all these defences because she can't back up her argument. This is my problem with certain other people....namely you. You clearly do not have the intelligence to refute what Stitches has said so you must inevitably resort to name calling self-satisfied redneck.
I chose to engage in these discussions because it was my understanding that the authors of the blogs were interested in different points of view (what's the point if everyone agrees?) However, this sort of name calling & childish behaviour really makes it a futile exercise.

 

Hey Blue

no worries, you know I still luv ya even if we disagree on a topic :-)

The way America is globally perceived is not necessarily how America really is. And I guess that's one point I never really got across I just went around and around it. Things aren't always how they really are when you're looking from the outside in.

And sometimes even when you are on the inside of it, its perceived in different ways by different people.

I think its wonderful that there are places like this where you can say what you think about a topic and get others opinions. I'm sure sometimes people change their minds about things, but then again sometimes they don't.


I suppose if it didn't interest us at least a little bit, we wouldn't feel compelled to speak of it would we?

I saw one complaint that America got its nose in everyone elses business, then another that we didn't get into others business enough. Hmmm I can't seem to figure that out in this little 'ol pea brain of mine. Looks like America is just going to get blamed for anything that's bad, period. We're damned if we do and damned if we don't.
See what I mean?

 

Stitches,

I think the focus is negatively focussed on the US at the moment due the war in Iraq & globally the number of people who are opposed to it. I can see how the perspectives of myself & others are skewed against the US in particular GWB... But your country is no more GWB than we are JH.

I like that we can agree to disagree on different matters. & I like the fact that I have access to more people to find out more about them & their different perspectives than I would have in 'normal' life.

luv & hugs Me :-)

 

D'artagnan,

Thank you for your kind words. Please remember the purpose of my blog is to release the debris from my brain & to explore ideas, philosophies & the lives of others - ensuring that all who participate are treated with respect & consideration, regardless of how these opinion differ from your own. Logical, respectful sharing & debate is the key.

Your first comment fulfilled this criteria until it turned personal.

Perhaps apologising to those you offended would be more appropriate.

 

Hey BlueBolt,
Posted my response on my blog ;-) Talk to you soon.

 

My attempt to lighten the tone of this fascinating exchange......

"I am a Moslem, I believe in one god."

"I am a Hindu, I believe in many gods."

"I am an atheist, I believe in no gods,"

"I am an American, I believe I AM god!"

 

Stiches:
well,as an American, I'll say it - we are often the land of the tyranical. our government often wants what it wants when it wants it - as does our society - we are the master consumers of the planet (and we've been culturized to be that way - what were we asked to do after 9/11 - go shop. my stats may be a bit off, but they're close - we are 23% of the world's population, consuming over 50% of the world's resources and contributing close to 70% of the world's polution. this is what causes other countries to criticise us. and, alas, many of us, swagger through the world - feeling superior and as if we have the best country, the best system, simply because, currently, we are most powerful. but at whose expense?

we set out to democratize the world, but what that realy means is open up new markets for capitalism.

of course, we've got a lot that's good going on here too. i love my country - but i wish it was a better world citizen.

blubolt:
we have both civil liberties and laws designed to protect us from others and ourselves - laws which require us to wear seatbelts, helmets if we ride motorcycles.

we have codifed free speech, but it does have limits - we have concerns with hate speech and dance on the head of a pin trying to protect ourselves from offensive acts yet still provide a space for those offensive acts within our public discouse (though this is getting harder and harder under the Bush administration as media becomes increasingly commericalized and gutless).

the indienous culture has had an influence on the larger culture which swallowed it up - though that influence is sometimes twisted and often marginalized.

we began as "fundmentalists" to use your term,though i am somewhat uncomfortable with that it. we also had indentured servants here as well (granted, not quite the same situation as Australia) and we opened our shores to the unwanted of europe - making for quite a pluralistic society as we went along. a very messy society - we struggled indeed with pluralism, but at least we struggle with it. we could be better - and i wish we were.

i can't say, as many americans do,"the system isn't perfect, but it's better than others" or "i'd rather live here than other place." i don't know if our system is better than say,canada's or england's, or australia's or any other developed, industralized, democratized country. and maybe i would rather live in another country - i don't know enough about other countries to make that determination. i take my citzenship somewhat for granted - i was born here, have always lived here.

sorry for the long comment. this has been an interesting call and response sequence on your blog.

thanks.

 

Brid's response, as usual is calming, peaceful and measured.
Don't be so hard on D'Artagnan as he(?) was just trying to express feelings and stitches got pretty fired up and quite vicious and personal in her own right. His(?) apology was to you, Bluebolt. You can't move it in another direction..it was a gift to you.
Love your blog.

 

Alison:
D'Artagnan actually did lower the tone of the conversation. I think you'll find that if you read the comments again, Stitches actually defended herself against attacks made on her. At no time did Stitches call anyone else a name or use judgemental language when referring to their thoughts & beliefs (with the exception of presumptuous).The problem is that if you have someone come to your blog, agree with your opinions & then choose not to back up their arguments but call names, it does lower the tone, drive away visitors & generally make people think it's *not worth it*.
I would also expect an apology to be directed at the person who was attacked rather than myself if I were BlueBolt. How many of us want these types of visitors to our blogs? That is, of course, if you like hearing opinions which differ from your own.........

 

mmm...Oz coming to stitches defence. Can't say you are reading her comments in a independent fashion... still it matters not.
Apologise could be used from Stitches as well... that's the point of forgiveness...helps you realise your own plank in your own eye instead of staring at the speck in someone elses. D'Artagnon did fine. Leave it be.

 

the point made about origin is a very good one...

In the US perspective first and foremost comes their freedom/liberty. And defending it. Therefore its priorities are very different. I do what I want because I have the right to and I am willing to defend it.

In the Australian perspective personal safety/security comes first in life. So they hold the government responsible to uphold and protect them. I elect you and I pay taxes so that you can keep my country safe, secure and fair for me.

this is simply my way of putting it ~ i'm not pretending to be an expert.

 

Thanks fatty :-)

 

Well, yes, its the evil stitches again. lol

One quick point. For every service government provides its citizens, you will, in exchange, lose something. Be it a personal freedom, or having extra rules and regulations imposed on you.

I believe in a smaller federal government, with as little intrusion into my life as possible.

Which is IMHO one of the differences in the left and the right. I believe in states rights, and that was how our country was originally intended to be. Small federal government, minute governing coming from the individual states. Our government on the federal level has grown way out of proportion to what it should be.

But then, this is all just a matter of perspective. And we each only have one vote. I try my best to use mine wisely.

 

Okay, this is a response to bits in Alison's tale gatherings as well as here...Stitches, you will find solice in these words and will understand them well...a little long winded though...

I just think it must be so awful to live in fear without wanting to resort to speech and conciliation to solve problems

This is a misnomer. You will find that the majority of Americans do not live with this thought. We are an eloquent and free-spoken society.

I think many people don't understand that the basis of government is presumed to be the voice of the people but in truth, there are very few that really understand the workings of politics. There is much study that needs to be done to truly understand the political nature of the US and how we became as we are. It is not fair to assume that what the government does is representative of the people. We have a democracy that is run more by power and money than the people. And it was an insipid and slow move to this new direction that we currently employ.

Can the average American become more involved in their government? Most assuredly. And this was very well noted in the elections of GB. At that time we were offended and terrified by the events of 911 and GB promised results. But how would the average American have known where the intentions of the “solid”, “Christian-based” presidency would lead them? There are many mistakes that have been made both by government and by the people. They could be discussed and debated for years.

In truth, we cannot characterize any one government as better or worse than another. They are all fraught with inconsistencies, lies and events that are NOT for the people (based primarily on the principals of a democratic form of government). History is strife with political atrocities and I suspect will be for some time to come. We, as a people of this world, need to explore the truth of what is important and how to sustain this truth.

How was it possible that Thomas Jefferson coined the phrase in the USA's constitution:" All men are created equal" but could go on to excuse the great horror of black slavery in his beloved country?

Yes, Jefferson was a slave owner, 187 total to be exact. What we perceive as “all men are created equal” is probably very different from the original thought. Note that it is not worded “all PEOPLE are created equal”. Slavery was commonplace within the United States (and Europe) during this time and the Africans were presented as a people of little or no intelligence, etc. by both their own people as well as the slave traders who exported and exploited them. (Note, slavery is still rampant in this day and age). I believe you will see this type of exploitation in any country with a large, poorly educated minority.

I think you may need to read what the 'right to bear arms' was really all about. Having a friend who is a lawyer who studdied the US Constitution she explained to me it actually had to do with 'the right to organise a state militia" when the states were yet to become the full UNITED states.

This is a topic that has been debated within the legal community for many years with many interpretations and many laws as determined by individual States. Further study of this amendment’s wording in relation to the other amendments is prudent to understand some of the speculations that have arisen in the debate on the right to bear arms as well as a study of the time period itself. On a side note, Samuel Adams, Thomas Jefferson and many others of that era were gun owners for sportsmanship as well as for self-defense. It is an amendment that will always have controversy.

Hand gun deaths: comparisons of statistical analyses between countries will never be correctly interpreted by most. The total population vs. populace vs. demographics will never be consistent. Certainly the number of deaths attributed to handguns (et al) in the US is greater but that cannot be compared to another country’s rate of death due to gun ownership. Firstly, compare the US population of 298,108,643 to the Australian population of 20,090,437. Then apply demographic indicators such as poverty level, educational level, population density, etc.

While I don’t condone gun ownership, I cannot apply statistics that would be incorrect and portray non-factual evidence.

I believe that when discussing any serious subject, all involved should be aware of opinions vs facts. IMHO.

 

Carolyn,

Thank you for your input - you have clarified a number of issues for me.

Stitches,

I believe we have the same problem here - where the Federal Govt is trying to increase its power base. We have a couple of states who are challenging the federal govt in the high court over constitutional matters - separation of powers.

I try to use my vote wisely also :-)

 

Bluebolt, you are more than welcome. The discussion of politics (as well as religion) often escalates well out of proportion to the original commentary.

Have a fabu day!!!! *grin*